Dimension 20alumni Brennan Lee Mulligan, Aabria Iyengar, Lou Wilson, and Erika Ishii createdWorlds Beyond Number, an independent creator-owned narrative-play audio drama in 2023. The podcast’s main storyline is set in Umora, a world created by Mulligan with Iyengar playing a wizard named Suvi, Ishii playing a witch named Ame, and a spirit named Eursulon. Throughout the first three arcs, the trio of childhood friends reconnect, but learn that while their destinies may be intertwined, their duties and alliances are not.
Worlds Beyond Numberhas also featured a number of one-shots, some set in Umora, like “Interlude: Twelve Brooks,” while others are outside this world, including “Space Cram” and “A Country Affair.” Arc 4 will launch October 8 with two Patreon exclusive one-shots debuting beforehand “Interlude II: The Clearing” and “Children’s Adventure Halloween Special” both of which take full advantage of spooky season.Worlds Beyond Numbernot only stars some of the top storytellers in the worlds of actual play, who havestarred inDimension 20andCritical Role, it also features phenomenal sound design and original music by Fortunate Horse’s Taylor Moore.
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Screen Rantcaught upwith Brennan Lee Mulligan, Aabria Iyengar, Lou Wilson, and Erika Ishii about Worlds Beyond Number Arc 3. The cast reflected on how they have grown together as storytellers between Misfits and Magic seasons one and 2 withWorlds Beyond Number. Wilson reflected on Eursulon’s growth and how it impacts him in Arc 4 and Ishii reflected on how Ame has grown in Arc 3.
The Worlds Beyond Number Cast Keeps Growing Closer As The Story Evovles
“I’ve known these people fictionally in a profound way.”
Arc 3 was incredible! I can’t believe all of that took place over the course of two days. It was so intense. We haveMisfits and Magicseason 2 coming out. Going back into that world, how did it feel after playing together for so long in this world? Did you notice a difference from your experience with season 1 into season 2 because ofWorlds Beyond Number?
Aabria Iyengar: I think from my end, I absolutely did. It really was a getting to know you for most of the people [in season one]. I knew Erika probably the longest before stepping into MisMag, that first season. But we hadn’t played together, so we didn’t have those kind of reps and that kind of rapport. And didn’t know Lou at all. Brennan, we had played together once a half a year earlier.
Feeling the difference between then and now was just light years of like, oh, I kind of get where these people are coming from and now feeling a little more comfortable with everyone’s wheelhouses and the sort of models you build of your friends as players at your table. Feeling more comfortable, throwing more at them in the season was, oh, just a delight. It was delicious.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: The absolute tapestry of fictional people I have been in concert with the fictional people my friends in this interview have been is simply staggering, and through so many different, like even across games. Obviously no one here I played with for the first time in Misfits and Magic.
My first time playing with Erika was Escape from the Bloodkeep. My first time playing with Aabria was Pirates of Leviathan. My first time playing with Lou was in an untelevised home game where Lou’s friend Sean made buffalo chicken dip that I still think about to this day and has been referenced in the media.
Aabria Iyengar: That’s so real.
Erika Ishii: Brennan never forgets a meal.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: I never forget a meal. So doing Worlds Beyond Number is so special because me and Lou played live shows in the UK. And then Aabria and Erika played as PCs in Jasmine Buller’s game for D&D Beyond.
I played with Aabria and Lou, DMing a Critical Role. I’ve played across from Erika in L.A. By Night. I’ve known these people fictionally in a profound way, and I know that that sounds provocative, but it really is just the cleanest way to say it. I’ve known these people fictionally in a profound way.
Erika Ishii: That’s so beautiful, Brennan. Look at that. Yeah, we’ve referred to it before as the different constellations of us whenever, like yeah, it’s truly, MisMag was the first time we were like, “Oh, okay, okay.” And then since then all the different configurations that we’ve had have kind of all yielded really legendary results, not to toot our constellations scoring.
I think it’s so fun now seeing somebody snipe a shot, whether it was in, when I ran the little one-shot for Lou and Aabria for The Children’s Adventure and I did something, and immediately they pick up on it and it pays off at the end and I’m like, “You guys knew,” or the moment with the scarf in … I just will never forget Brennan’s face.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: Stone-cold man, stone-cold got me.
Lou Wilson: You know there’s just a depth and a scale that I think that our storytelling has grown in, and I think that’s reflected across all of these projects that we’re involved in now. We go deeper and we go wider every time.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: The beauty of Worlds Beyond Number is that the wonderful times we have had playing telling stories together all across actual play come together and have a chance to do something really grand in scale. That, I think, is what Worlds Beyond Number does that is really meaningful to me, is a series of relationships honed through these artistic works that I think all of us are very proud of.
And then we get to jump into Worlds Beyond Number and really settle on down for a saga, which is of course the kind of storytelling that I’m the most drawn to, is that surging saga, the epic tales, the tales that you grew up hearing. Worlds Beyond Number!
Erika Ishii: It really is a moment where the training weights are off.
Lou Wilson Explains How Eursulon Is Prepared For His New Quest Because Of Suvi & Ame
“When he speaks, it’s important because, for a lot of his life, he was saying very little.”
Lou, I’m so excited for Eursulon to have a quest that is all his own. I love that it’s connected to him being of the spirit world. What are you excited to explore with Eursulon having this story outside of Ame and Suvi, but at the same time, what will he take from his experience in both Ame and Suvi’s world?
Lou Wilson: Well, I’ll tell you, we have done a little bit of chapter four, so there’s something that I’m going to try and toe the line because I think you’re asking the right question. I think it has been incredibly exciting to kind of evolve Eursulon into this new space that is, he has his own engine that he puts his own fuel in now.
I think that the beauty for me as the player is to kind of guide it with all of the rails that he’s been given by these experiences, very much his car, very much he’s behind the wheel. But I think that there is this depth from being with an archmage apprentice and the Witch of the World’s Heart that is like, I’m not just out here doing my thing.
Two of the wisest, most intelligent people in the world have got my back and have been, I think in many ways nurturing Eursulon to have the confidence and poise to execute on this quest. These things don’t happen without, Eursulon never finds this quest without Ame needing to be at this coven. And he doesn’t have the training to execute it without journeying with Suvi to the Citadel.
So I think it’s really been very fun in chapter four to be executing and moving toward this goal with these two kind of guiding lights that have been encouraging him to take these steps and now he finally has the aim and the mission to move towards.
I love your performance as Eursulon. You put so much emotion into just going like, “Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.” So good!
Lou Wilson: Yeah, it’s important. I think there’s something in it that Eursulon has spent a lot of his life alone. And I think that there’s something to that. When he speaks, it’s important because, for a lot of his life, he was saying very little. And I think that I’m glad that that kind of resonance is there even in those small moments.
And then Aabria, oh Suvi…
Aabria Iyengar: What? I don’t like how this began.
She ended the last arc with her friends running off. Then she ended this arc with her running off and her boyfriend is kind of in some trouble. Suvi is alone again after this ‘cause her and Ame are kind of on weird terms. How is she feeling after the events of the conclave where it maybe, like yay Ame’s safe, that’s great. The Citadel stuff might not be going so great on her end.
Aabria Iyengar: Yeah, I think, oh gosh, it is very funny to have the narrative parallels of the way in which her friends fled from her in the second arc and the way in which she flees from a situation that is equally dangerous to her. There is that mixed bag of a win where Suvi at the end of arc three has accomplished. She has that sort of ding, you’ve completed a quest. But when she goes and checks the quest marker, it’s not filled in because of magic.
She’s like, “Okay, I’m feeling like I got a W. Don’t really understand that one yet. I’ve saved my friend,” and in doing so have secured some measure of safety for the Citadel knowing or at least believing because she doesn’t actually know as of the time of her leaving, but can assume that her friend has prevented unanimity from the coven.
So there is that sense of like, “Okay, we got the win. We took care of what we need to take care of. I have to get out of here because I have other people I need to keep safe.” I think Suvi constantly throwing herself towards people that she loves enough to attempt to secure their safety is her sort of quest fever.
So yeah, getting back to the ship and going, “Well, great, that sucked, but it’s time to go back home and rela- What? He said what? And then what? Okay, great. No breaks. Time to go soar off to the next thing.” Which is what she wanted from minute one when she was so desperate to prove herself as she was begging Steel to be let out of her sort of old man soft cookie duties.
So it’s very fun to play a character that absolutely got monkey pawed minute one to be like, “Oh, so many adventures. I’m so tired. Okay, next one now.” It’s very cool that arc four is absolutely the like be careful what you wish for. You wanted to be a full part of the engine of action of the Citadel, and here’s what that means. Watching Suvi absolutely get gut checked with the truth or more of the truth in Umora has been really fun. And dang, I’m just dehydrated from screaming and crying. Delightful. I love it.
When you had that moment where Suvi went into herself like never before, there were the secrets about agreeing to the plans of the Citadel. Do you think there was more there that has been hidden from her, though?
Aabria Iyengar: That’s very fun. I think Suvi’s belief is that if there’s this, what else could be there? It’s finally opening the aperture of her trust to go, what did I consent to and what version of me said yes before? And is this one more step down a chain of yeses like a frog slowly boiling in a pot, sort of consigning her will to that of the Citadel.
For me personally, my hope is that that little nugget of Suvi trying to use physical memory to remember this like … I know it’s not pronounced “gaias”, it’s like “geesh”, but it’s less fun to say that. So her trying to physically remember it as a little trigger of if this is a thing that has happened to her that is happening to her. Hopefully her body begins to remember the things that she isn’t allowing her mind to remember. So I don’t know. You have to ask Brennan.
Yeah, but I don’t think Brennan will tell me.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: I’m Fort Knox, baby. You’re not getting anything out of me. Ask me a question about what’s coming up in chapter four, Caitlin, and you’ll see what happens.
Well, I’m not going to do it now. I’m going to sneak it in.
Erika Ishii Dives Into The Origins Of Ame In Worlds Beyond Number
“I think it’s really cool to see that Ame’s strength always lies in those she keeps around her.”
Erika, I love that we got to see Ame among the other witches and she grows this. It’s so funny watching Ozme or Ame be very wise about certain aspects and not super intelligent about certain aspects where it’s like, “I’m just going to tell you this thing.” And Suvi’s like, “No, no, no, no. That’s secret for a reason. Use that later.” Can you talk about playing those aspects and then really hitting home with it in the final moments of this is why you shouldn’t kill me?
Erika Ishii: It’s so funny because Ame was originally created as a trixie character, and her familiar is a fox. So there was always this idea, and we see it a lot in The Children’s Adventure, but I think we’ve had to see Ame in a very responsible role up until this point in the main campaign.
Whether she succeeds or not in those responsibilities is up for debate, but she has a sense of duty and is always moving from the next thing. Okay, we break the curse, we find Eursulon, we find the sword. There’s always that next thing. I think mostly we talked about how witches by default don’t tend to go on adventures. That’s the whole thing, is they build a community, they are NPCs in others’ lives. They are sort of catalysts for things to happen.
And so in this arc, it was interesting to see Ame really take all the things that she has learned thus far, and that trixiness that was always there and kind of synergize it to save her life and to escape with some very powerful artifacts and their lives intact.
But I think it’s really cool to see that Ame’s strength always lies in those she keeps around her, whether it’s Suvi bringing the evidence, or Eursulon just drinking and defending other spirits, or the spirits that she meets there at the conclave. Having Ame’s station and her personality kind of come together I think was very, very fun this arc.
Quest Fever Ame is one of my favorite Ames ‘cause it’s just, “Let’s do this thing. All right, we’re running.” I love it.
Erika Ishii: Weirdly, I think that’s when it’s easiest for me to play Ame. I think that’s when we’re drift compatible the most of just like, “Yes, okay, we do this. We’re going to do this. We can justify it later.” ‘Cause I noticed Ame speaks haltingly and has to think and work really, really hard to be in a conclave setting and say the right thing and do the right thing. But when it’s like, do we swallow a bunch of keys and take these things and kidnap this child, then yes, the answer is that’s easy-peasy.
Brennan Lee Mulligan Asked “What Are The Four Witches That Put Ame The Most On Edge?” When Building The Coven Of Elders
Brennan, talk to me about the world-building of the Coven of Elders and how you decided which stations were still around versus which ones weren’t filled anymore.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: Oh, man, that’s such a great question. I love the Coven of Elders. What I really wanted to do was we had just had chapter two, which was basically like, let’s take what you’ve seen of wizardry and fan out the deck of cards and show you all these wizards and all this stuff going on in the Citadel. Here’s what it’s like for the war mages going to war and the archmagi, and here’s the artificers down and have a word. Here’s the Suvi and her apprentice and all this stuff like that.
And then we were going to witches. I just really wanted to, there’s something fun about, the word that comes to mind is exponential, where when you do a little bit of world building, you can do your world building in a way that starts to indicate a pattern. So if there’s Ame, who’s this shrine maiden Witch of the Heart, something else like that, and she starts meeting these other witches and they’re like, “I’m an evil shrine maiden.” It’s like, “Well, so we’re all shrine maidens. What’s going on exactly?” You can go really wide with it.
And then it was the idea too of coming to a council of people that speak on the nature of witchcraft, which is the magic that bridges between the human world and between Umora and the spirit and wanting to show in the same way that our tendency is to be humanocentric and to really center human needs and wants, the idea of being like, okay, human humanity gets a vote, and then bugs get a vote, and then trees get a vote, and you’re like, “Wait, our vote.” I think a natural human part being like, “Well, we should get more votes.” And it’s like, “No,” the dark gets a vote." That you have this world. There’s a bug witch?
Erika Ishii: This is very important to me, Brennan!
Brennan Lee Mulligan: Bug witch sounds like a camp tradition. The last kid to get back to the bug house has to eat a bug witch.
If I’m being honest, and this is really giving up the ghost on my world building, I was like, what are the four witches that put Ame the most on edge? What are the four coworkers when you show up to the new office where you’re like, “Oh, I got to catch up.” This woman’s got a bunch of extra knees and an arm in her chest and my symbol is a rolling pin and a basket. Ooh, we got to hustle.
Aabria Iyengar: Yeah, Ame, you need to get weird. Your body shape is so normal.
Erika Ishii: I brought brownies to the grand feast. That’s crazy.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: Yeah, there’s Pinhead as a centibyte and you’re like, “I have lemon bars.” But yeah, it really, it was that feeling of, especially thinking about other polar elemental stations that all would feel so removed from Ame, but clearly not be like each other.
Indri’s not like Mirara. The energy is not similar between them. So it was really about creating a feeling where Ame’s view of what witchcraft is would be really challenged not only by how potent and powerful these witches are, but by showing how vast witchcraft can be and that you get there and go, “Oh. Yeah, they’re all older than me, but also my station or my domain is but one of many.” And that was the goal.
The Cast Reveals Who Is Their Favorite Witch From The Coven Of Elders
I’m curious other than Ame, who is each of your favorite members of the Coven of Elders?
Brennan Lee Mulligan: At the end of the arc I have a very clean answer. I can say it definitively. Is it wrong for me to go first as the DM? Does that feel cheating for me to go first?
Lou Wilson: I mean, it’s like I’m allowed to. Yeah, I don’t think so. I love who I love. You love who you love.
Aabria Iyengar: I bet Brennan’s going to say Hakea.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: It’s Hakea, obviously, clearly. In terms of someone that I was able to lock into and who I think has all of the fun parts of being deeply human and understandable, and then probably a nice solid chunk of things where you’re like, “Oh, that’s an immortal, that’s like a … " where it’s like she’s so sweet to Ame, she really likes Ame.
Her view of life and world and events, there’s that moment of being, spoilers, where she’s like, “You’ve done so well, Ame. Congratulations. The Woodland Green votes for war.” I was like that pivot where Hakea sees the vision of the Coven of Elders more clearly than anyone. Where it’s like, no, you and me are opposed on this vote because we should be. You did everything right and you don’t feel bad about your vote.
From your station, you did exactly what you needed to do. We are going to go to war. You don’t have to come with us. And that’s how it should play. There’s something about that worldview, I don’t know how many characters I played that have a fun point of view to play that cleanly, and so I really like Hakea a lot for that.
Aabria Iyengar: I do think Hakea is the perfect way I thought about my grandma when I was a little kid, like, “Oh, you’re immortal, and the kindest and scariest person I’ve ever met because you’re ancient and I don’t know why the phrase cut a switch makes all of my baby cousins cry. Interesting. Interesting.” So yeah, I love Hakea. I think I’m a strong Indri stan all day long. She’s the perfect mean girl. I love her.
Erika Ishii: Yeah, I just wish I was as slick as Indri I think is what it is.
Aabria Iyengar: Yeah, she’s the goal.
Erika Ishii: Right? I wish I could. She has a whole massive library, but it’s just her. Why have multiple desks for studying in the library if it’s just you and you don’t want anybody around? Perfect. But Hakea is, yeah, I think it’s Hakea for me.
Lou Wilson: I think completely disconnected from the reality of the situation and focusing solely on the aesthetic got to go with Gramore. It’s just pretty sick. You got unnaturally big hands with claws on the end. You’re wearing skins. I mean, just imagine if everywhere you walked in, there were six big cats. That sh-t is crazy. You have a pride with you wherever you go. Come on. Come on.
Aabria Iyengar: You’re right. Posse. Posse is strong.
Erika Ishii: That was compelling.
Lou Wilson: I bet that smells f-cking awful, but the aesthetic clean.
Erika Ishii: Yeah, but it’s like if you’re with them all the time, you just get used to it.
Lou Wilson: I’m sure. Yeah, exactly.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: It is the ultimate power move to walk into a room and have a bunch of Bengal tigers and just be like, I’m impressive, but also, I walked in here with six tigers. That’s very, very cool.
Aabria Iyengar: This does feel like Mirara erasure ‘cause she’s so crazy shaped. She’s so crazy shaped and so creepy. And she’s banging the Man in Black and we really have to just, we have to give it up to her. She’s not first in our hearts, but she got it.
Lou Wilson: She’s the Men in Black’s favorite, and I think that really says something.
Aabria Iyengar: Yeah. You’re right Lou. You’re right.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: But I do think it’s very fun to take the queen of darkness role, to take what should in a typical high fantasy be like that’s your Maleficent, that’s your big bad. Instead to have it be like, actually she is the second youngest and kind of lowest status. I think Aabria put it this way which I love, because Ame is rookie of the year, Mirara actually now has somehow an even lower status. So it’s like this horrifying thing.
I have never seen that trope before. I’ve never seen a queen of darkness character kind of get dunked on by her coven. Mirara’s incredibly powerful, but compared to, it’s just like, hey, if anyone that makes it to the NBA is an incredible basketball player, here’s who you’re playing. Hakea and Indri and Gramore are at this level, and we see Mirara get a little outpaced, even down to not having a retinue.
I also think that one note about Indri too, that I do have to give it up for Indri was, it’s very funny ‘cause I think we got questions from our Fireside about in that moment where Indri also votes no. People were like, “Why? Why? Why?” That was fully improvised. I’ll tell you right now, there’s nothing about that character that would’ve voted yes in that moment. It was just a funny thing of like, oh, of course she votes no, she has to vote no. Nothing’s for free from Indri.
Aabria Iyengar: Her vote for that cemented it. That was the good to great moment of like, “Oh, she’s a mean girl. She’s cool.” One. Oh, you voted no so you can ask for one favor at a time. Oh, she’s a killer to everyone. She’s perfect. I love her. And she has a big old polar bear.
That’s really nice somehow.
Aabria Iyengar: Yeah, he’s very cool. He’s very respectful. Other than the fox, he was the greatest NPC of all time. Definitely the best familiar, close guy, closest perhaps.
Lou Wilson Explains Eursulon’s Dynamic With The Man In Black
One of the things I think is really interesting is you have Suvi who kind of has that cognitive dissonance about [the Citadel]. And we have Eursulon now kind with feeling a little bit more sympathy for the Man in Black and what he’s about. What is it like to play with those emotions of I know that where I come from is an enemy of my friend, but I’m not going to lose either of them?
Lou Wilson: I’d say it’s a really fun space to be in because I do think there is something, even just as the player that’s very enticing about being like, I get to have scenes with the bad guys and we’re like homies. We kind of talk about sports and stuff. And then when you guys talk about them, it’s like, “Oh, we’re so scared. We’re so scared,” I’m like, “I don’t know. We’re kind of cool.”
As Eursulon, I think there’s something really profound in his relationship with the Man in Black. I think in part because Brennan does this very incredible thing, which is when I built the character Eursulon and I was thinking about his journey, I think there was this part of me that in the time when he was desperate to get back home and thought fondly about returning to the spirit world, there was this familiar attachment to the idea of those who were there and him being away from that home, being outside of the house and those people being his brothers and his sisters.
And then to meet Orima and be like, “Sister,” and it’s like, “you don’t know me like that.” But then to meet the Man in Black who so excitedly and warmly gives Eursulon this feeling of familiarity that he longed for. I think that as the story grows, as Eursulon moves forward, develops, evolves, I think in a lot of ways Eursulon is very comfortable in that space of being. As long as it’s not on, it’s okay. You haven’t made another move since we met. Once you make a move, it’s over.
But I think that’s something I think I really wanted to play with in Eursulon’s kind of being a spirit and not being a human, which that Eursulon is very present and Eursulon doesn’t hold grudges. He doesn’t hold on to past interactions with people in some intense way that he’s like, “What? I know that he did that. And so every time I see him, I’m always holding that.”
There’s this kind of like with the Man in Black that time is that time and with his friends, that time is something completely separate. I think the exciting part in the surging saga of this story is that we are slowly encroaching on one year later when those two times must interact.
Aabria Iyengar: A crossroads, if you will. I do think there’s something really cool and fun in the parallel between Eursulon’s interactions with the Man in Black and Suvi’s understanding of the Citadel through the context of the way her friends saw it during their time there. That idea of Eursulon is treated with nothing but respect and agency from the Man in Black, while he very nakedly is like, “Yeah, your friends are going to die.” And that’s simply true.
Eursulon can kind of hold in his heart the difference in someone who actually honors and valorizes his identity and will eventually, we’ll see, reckon with what that means for the people he cares about. I think that is also very true for Suvi on the other end. I will push back a little bit on the cognitive dissonance. It’s not that Sufi fully no sells any problems with the Citadel.
It’s that her burden of proof is exceptionally high given this is all she’s ever known. So the time it takes to sit with and sit in the things that she’s learning or beginning to see creeping through the world, the cracks in her understanding of the Citadel, unfortunately it still holds water that it’s like if that’s true, I’ve never been treated with anything other than respect and encouragement and support from this place.
So sitting in some of those parallel vibes are really fun. I think that’s been a very cool needle that Brennan’s threaded across the board, even down to Ame and the coven. Hers is a fun reverse of knowing what the coven should be, a sisterhood, we all call each other sisters.
Erika Ishii: She’s like nope, witches suck, witches suck.
Aabria Iyengar: But also Ame is like I had to walk up with a five paragraph essay about why they shouldn’t kill me. “Dear sisters, don’t murder me” is a very fun thing of how you are treated by your in-group versus what your in-group thinks of the rest of the world in the rest of the space. It’s a really cool thing that Brennan has put on the board and I’m so excited to see how it develops for all three of us.
Brennan Lee Mulligan:That’s really nice. I think that there’s something to give context to every character and also talk about the nature of true fantasy and mythic storytelling, which is that you create shapes that are not analogous to the real world. Magic at a certain point is just magic. It is just this works in a way that it doesn’t work in our world.
I think what’s incredible is how the characters all react to institutions. And they have to react to them differently. Suvi comes from a world that is the most centered in Umora, not a bridge. Wizards miraculously against all odds with no permission and no support or help, people that were just destined to not be able to touch the spirit found a way to touch it and built a language and a learning and an understanding around it.
So their attachment to institution is that the institution is far greater than any constituent part of the institution. For better and for worse, that devotion, the idea of a great cause and a great project, but also the degree to which that great cause and that great project can mean that Steel saying to Suvi, nothing you have is yours and nothing I have is mine.
Then you go all the way to the other side, which is the world of spirits, which for better or for worse is so mythic and supernal. It is institutionless. Naram flattens a plane of witchfire and a hundred soldiers that are in it by himself. Why would he need to be part of a fraternal organization? The spirit world has no need for institution.
So when the Man in Black is talking to Eursulon, he’s coming from this divine world of the single-souled thing, the thing of unique essence, carries within it a potency so great that it need rely on nothing. So to recognize the brotherhood I share with Eursulon is an obvious course of action because we are each unto ourselves an entire divine truth.
For Ame as like witches being “the bridge,” it’s a bizarre thing where it’s like it’s not institionless like the world of spirits where the Man in Black is like, “I want you Eursulon to wield my sword.” This is a personal relationship. It will not be mediated through some cause or institution, nor is it like the coven is what matters. Any witch would be lucky to give up. It’s like the institution exists to serve the power and might of the individuals on it.
It’s this weird middle point between the spirit and the mortal world. Hakea made this coven to solve a problem of we need an institution to help mediate the great power of the witches that are here. So this sisterhood, you need to be polite, but you don’t have to try to not kill somebody. That’s a wild, it’s like a weird meeting point between the world of institutions in Umora and the world of the deeply personal and mythic in the spirit.
Erika Ishii: It’s interesting when we formulated so much of our characters and helped inform Brennan of the story, we talked about the strength of a triad, just the idea that we three represented the characters, each represented different points of view, different cultures, different, and how it’s like past, present, future. Just all these different ways in which the three of us could have such distinctly different but complementary points of view.
It’s really interesting to see that, especially in this, ‘cause in some ways we’ve seen for the second arc, we got to see Suvi’s world and understand her and her world more. And now seeing witches and it’s like, “Oh, it’s not really an institution, it’s just a bunch of people that are trying to mediate everything else.” But we really haven’t actually seen a ton of the spirit world yet, which is interesting.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: I would also say too, that the coven, it’s very interesting I think to me ‘cause the coven is an institution. It’s just that its purpose is to mediate.
Erika Ishii: It’s not a governing body. They have no authority outside of themselves really.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: It’s almost like it’s an institution in the way that a contract or an agreement is an institution. It’s like we would all be big. We would all be big f-cking deals without this. And the coven exists to mediate that big deal-ness.
I don’t know why I went here but, there’s that old thing about romantic relationships, which is it’s like, is the relationship the project or is the relationship the vehicle by which you do the project, which is life. People have different feelings about that. I know where my bread’s buttered. But people have different feelings about that for sure.
Arc Four Of Worlds Beyond Number Will Explore Humanity Beyond The Empire Of Umora
Can you talk a little bit about shedding light on humanity within the world of Umora outside of the empire?
Brennan Lee Mulligan: Yes. Well, we saw a little bit of that in this chapter. We saw Tefmet from the Free Roads, right? I think in chapter four, we’re going to see some of that as well. Humanity is vast and expansive, and the human world in Umora, even within the context of empire, humanity is vast and very different. We started in Akham, which is in the empire, but as you can see by the problems with the traveling door and yada, yada, it’s like at the very furthest reaches of the empire’s influence.
There are, I think a tremendous amount. We’ve heard about Ruv, we’ve talked about Gaothmai. I think the main thing to bear in mind with humanity in this setting is just that it is as multifarious and anti-monolithic as you could imagine it to be. Even down to the very fun human moment of just dealing with changing generations and technologies and cultures and how things change.
I’m thinking about Grandma Wren having the conversation about Ame’s immortal ancestor, the Warlock who promised his soul to the moon and had to look after his descendants. And Ame wwas like, “He’s looking after me.” And Grandma was like, “Well, he’s like 40 generations back.” So he has exponential growth. The guy’s got thousands of descendants, or not even 40 generations, more than 40 generations.
Aabria Iyengar:That’s everyone.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: That’s everyone, right? It’s like everybody. Half the world’s descended from this guy. He’s so old. And then Ame says something like, “Wait, I’m related to everybody?” And Grandma Wren says, “That’s how our species works.”
To me, that’s one of my favorite pieces of how the fantasy, folklore, fairy tale, world building in Umora does touch the deeply logistical and human and us telling a story with all of our modern 2024 understandings of the world, to have those little moments of like, “Yes, Ame, you’re related to everybody. Yes, we are a common species. Yes, for sure.”
Erika Ishii: And at that moment, Ame understood that her in-group was everyone.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: Witch of the World’s Heart. There you go.
Erika Ishii: Oh no.
Also, I’m counting it as a win. He commented on arc four.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: No. No.
Erika Ishii Teases The “Whimsical” Children’s Adventure Halloween Special
Erika, I’m so excited to hear the one shot where you get to DM again and go back to the time of The Children’s Adventure. Are you going to be DMing and playing Ame at the same time?
Erika Ishii: So I think I can tell you a little tidbit about it. So yes, I play Ame essentially as an NPC, and it’s with Tiny Suvi and Tiny Eursulon. It was very fun because then I played other characters and I truly don’t know how Brennan keeps it all straight in his head.
In Umora every DM is … This is what it’s like having voices in your head. You have to shift completely to a whole different point of view, and I think that’s really, really difficult. But having Ame as sort of a guide, and it’s so nice too, is that we are so familiar with our characters at this point that it was a lot easier just flip in and out of the kid Ame voice and mindset to play other characters.
It’s whimsical as hell, I will say, I think I want to say. I had a lot of fun with setting it up because it’s Halloweeny, but also has a lot of influence from sort of, ‘cause obviously the kids were only together for the summer. So how do you make a celebration, a spooky celebration in the summer? And that’s something that you’ll hopefully see and be delighted by.
I have no doubt that I’ll be delighted by it. Brennan, what can you tease about the other interlude one-shot that we’re going to get?
Erika Ishii: Okay. Well, I will say that I posted on my Instagram a little while back a photo from our last camp, and there’s one of Aabria was Blair-witching in the corner, and Lou was doing the thousand yard stare. That was it. That’s from The Clearing.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: I’ll tell you what, this is all I’ll say, this ain’t no Twelve Brooks. Okay?
Aabria Iyengar: I miss Twelve Brooks.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: Strap in. Strap in.
Aabria Iyengar: Whenever Brennan says strap in, you have to believe it. You have to believe it.
Erika Ishii: Squish, squish, squishy noises.
Lou Wilson Breaks Down How The Magical Train Is A Perfect Intersection Of “The Narrative Of Miyazaki And American Folklore”
And then I want to ask, how excited are you to have the train come into play at some point?
Erika Ishii: We all screamed. We all screamed, “A train.” You don’t understand how much I love a locomotive in a narrative. It is just the romance of the rails for me.
Aabria Iyengar: You can’t say it like that. We exist in 2024.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: The romance of the rails.
Erika Ishii: The pumping arteries of this great country of Umora.
Aabria Iyengar: It definitely felt like the exact thing you drop to take a group that now is so settled into what we know Umora to be and then go like, “Hey, look at me. Look at me. Trains now.” We’re like, “Oh my God, this world can be anything.” It was just that beautiful moment of feeling like a kid at Christmas because the gift of what trains can be.
God, that ticket, hiding it in your papers to hear a stop that only you can hear, that is just everything that the fantasy you read as a child. That’s the promise of the premise. For people who grew up with fantasy and wanting and longing for all of those things.
This was a direct like, “I’m going to reach into your heart and go like, ‘You’re still going to feel this way. Even as an adult, even damn near 80 years old like I feel most days you will hear something like that and be goddamn delighted.'” It was just such a beautiful feeling at the table in that little cute little room.
Erika Ishii: Also, extra context layered on top of that is that all of us live in Los Angeles, and public transportation is not a thing that you do easily or well here in this city. So even just that part, the idea of a working locomotive is exciting.
Aabria Iyengar: Is it efficient?
Brennan Lee Mulligan: Yeah. Here’s how special trains are. There’s a place in Griffith Park called Train Town.
Erika Ishii: I love Tiny Train Town. You don’t understand. You don’t understand. Every year I do the Tiny Train to Ghost town whenever it’s around or the Tiny Train to Christmas town. Yes.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: The Tiny Train. There you go. I’ve been to a lot of birthday parties at Train Town and it is wild. It’s just a tiny train and then some big trains. The big trains don’t move. They’re just there.
Erika Ishii: To look at. You look at them.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: These kids are going buck wild. They are looking at big trains and they’re going, “That’s the sh-t I’m talking about.” Some of them, pre-verbal. There is something in trains that is so great that even kids that don’t know the history of industrialization are like, “This is exactly what the doctor ordered. I love this big thing.”
Aabria Iyengar: I think at the height of my sort of jock rizz, there’s a big volleyball festival that happens in Sacramento, or at least it did when I was but a youngin. I remember being a senior in the year before you go to college, going to this massive volleyball tournament in Sacramento, and everyone was kind of like, “So what else is there to do here?” And they’re like, “There’s a train museum.” And we’re like, “Yeah, dog. Let’s go see those trains.”
The coolest kids you may imagine at the height of their, all I care about is doing my sport really well and being cool in school. We’re like, “Yeah, let’s go see those trains though. I bet they kind of slap,” and we all had a good time. It was just 40 volleyball teams being like, “These trains are dope. Get this picture.”
Aabria Iyengar: Choo-choo. The romance of the rails.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: Romance of the rails.
Lou, do you have any thoughts as the one that actually got the ticket?
Aabria Iyengar: Damn.
Lou Wilson: I do. I think for me it’s more tied kind of thematically to the story. I think there’s something really amazing about this Rubik’s cube that we’re looking or this cube that we’re looking at of the narrative of Miyazaki and American folklore. And as we turn it over again and again and continue to explore new sides of it, I think that is a fun moment where we’ve been looking at two sides of the cube and are like, “Okay, I know these.”
There’s still so much more to explore there that’s like, and another side, and that kind of excitement and energy of there’s still so much more in this space and in our inspiration to explore and bring into this world. I’m sure Brennan’s got a thousand more tricks up his sleeve.
Aabria Iyengar: You better.
Lou Wilson: Actually train was it.
Erika Ishii: If it’s more trains that I could be on board for that, choo-choo.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: I think I just really love Lou kicking that answer off with, yeah, I loved it for its connection to the story. I guess I’m not just sort of freaking out about trains.
Erika Ishii: He’s a different kind of neurodivergent than us.
Lou Wilson: Hey, I spent a lot of time on trains. I’ve taken multiple cross-country train trips. I enjoy trains.
Erika Ishii: Wait, what?
Aabria Iyengar: Lou loves trains the most.
Lou Wilson: I’ve lived on trains multiple times in my life, but you know I just …
Brennan Lee Mulligan: Oh, so this wasn’t like you being like, “I don’t get why you guys are so into trains.” This is more like we are talking about getting Trader Joe’s boxed wine and you’re a sommelier.
Lou Wilson: Yeah, of course. I’ve slept in sleeper cars. I’ve befriended waiters in dining cars, made friends with men in cafes, explored the Southwest on board the Southwestern Chief. I’ve taken the train from Los Angeles to Chicago four times.
Aabria Iyengar: Lou isn’t new to this. He’s true to this. He’s the realest fan.
Lou Wilson: I’m not new to this. I’m true to this.
Erika Ishii: The glass-ceilinged one?
Lou Wilson: Yeah, of course, the viewing car.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: Do I even know you? When was this going to come out?
Lou Wilson: Man, I took a train from Los Angeles to Boston to go to college and a train from Boston to Los Angeles to come home.
Aabria Iyengar: Amazing.
Erika Ishii: Why wouldn’t you brag about this all the time?
Brennan Lee Mulligan: I don’t feel safe.
Aabria Iyengar: Because Lou does cool stuff all the time, and he doesn’t have to flex about it.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: I don’t feel like I know where I’m at. I don’t feel like I know. This is too much, man.
Aabria Iyengar: Yeah, a big revelation.
Lou Wilson: What can I say? I love trains. I love trains.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: And you were letting us blather on like a couple of f-cking dilettantes.
Lou Wilson: Hey, Train Town is sick. Train Town is sick. I got nothing but love for Train Town.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: F-cking Captain Choo-Choo over here holding out on us. Goddamn it.
Lou Wilson: That’s what they called me.
Erika Ishii: Thank you so much for coming to this press conference here, Caitlin.
That’s what broke everyone here is Lou just being like, “Yeah, I ride trains a lot.”
Brennan Lee Mulligan: That’s the thing is if you had not called Lou out, Lou might not have participated in that topic. It would be like us being like, “Yeah, oh, I saw macaques at the zoo. I went to a zoo that had chimpanzees. That was crazy.” And then we’re about to move on and then Caitlin’s like, “Lou, have you ever seen primates at the zoo?” And Lou’s like, “I’m Jane Goodall.” We’re like, “You weren’t going to jump in? You weren’t going to jump in when we got there?”
Lou Wilson: You guys were hype on trains. I wanted let you ride the romance to the rails.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: God, the thought, the thought that we could have missed that. The thought that we could have breezed by.
Erika Ishii: We sat next to each other for 11 episodes of Misfits and Magic recently, and this did not come up. We could have been talking about trains the entire time.
Erika Ishii: I’m so mad.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: You got to stay on your feet.
Aabria Iyengar: Every time I have a conversation with Lou, I learn something new and delightful. It’s so good. A thousand tricks.
Brennan Lee Mulligan Clarifies While The Fox Is Not Ame’s Heart " He Is This Weird Spiritual Extension”
Brennan, I love the fox with all my heart.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: Thank you. We’re about to find out that Lou raises foxes professionally.
Lou Wilson: Stop dude. Here. Come with me.
Erika Ishii: Nice try. You have to have a special license for those in the States.
Aabria Iyengar: You think Lou doesn’t have that license?
Lou Wilson: I’ve applied. It just hasn’t gone through.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: Do you know that when you raise foxes in captivity, their eyes get bigger and their noses get shorter? That’s true.
Aabria Iyengar: Is it because they’re trying to be people? Are they anime-ing themselves?
Brennan Lee Mulligan: It is very observable in fox generations, however, there is a general trend in the domestication of animals for them to get cuter. That’s a real thing.
Aabria Iyengar: Yeah, that makes sense.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: I’m sorry, Caitlin, you were going to ask about the fox?
Was I? I don’t know.
Aabria Iyengar: Who could say?
No, it’s gone. What was maybe your favorite moment in arc three of getting into fox mode? Because he had some really big MVP moments as the fox. I do love just straight shooting Suvi like, yeah, it’s bad.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: Oh, yeah. When the fox is delegated as the guy who’s going to break the news to Suvi.
Aabria Iyengar: That is horrific by the way. We have to talk about that. My two best friends in the world see me in crisis and they look at each other for too long to see who’s going to break bad news, and then the fox goes, “I got it. I wasn’t really listening, but it seems pretty bad.” And you’re like, “Oh, well, I’m going to turn into dust. Thank you so much.”
Brennan Lee Mulligan: I think weirdly, my favorite moments with the fox in chapter three come about … I mean, he’s a great little spy for Ame. That’s really fun. He actually does his familiar job really well in this arc. He scoots into the library of stars. He finds Tefmet’s room. He’s a nice little snoop.
Erika Ishii: He wakes up Hakea.
Aabria Iyengar: I loved his sprint to go wake her up.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: Running across sleeping predators and jumping through vines and getting there. “Hey lady, wake up.”
I actually think my favorite moments of the fox this chapter are the moments that he got closer to Suvi because I feel like that’s an important, it’s like as Ame and Suvi are being very rocked by the events of this chapter and ending on a note of probably the most distant they’ve been since the end of chapter two, I think the fact that the fox took several points.
There’s one point where he jumps in Suvi’s arms and licks her face. There’s another where he says something along the lines of, “Boss, we’ve got to be more like Suvi,” or talking about keeping secrets.
The fox is not Suvi’s heart. He’s not her emotional core. That’s her. But he is this weird spiritual extension. So there’s something about as Ame and Suvi’s friendship is being really challenged that some part of Ame’s soul is reaching out to Suvi. It felt very, very lovely. There’s something very pointed in this chapter. I think those are my favorite fox moments.
Aabria Iyengar: I’m going to give one little hint to arc four, the fox. There is a moment where the fox comes into his own as a familiar of the Witch of the World’s Heart. It was so cool and you’re like, “Oh, oh, this is what it is.” I just love that elevation from the fox as a way to relieve tension and add a little levity, but the fox really in the pocket of doing what he exists to do was such a fun, oh, it’s real here now ‘cause the fox is doing his job. Oh, no.
Erika Ishii: Oh, I love him so much. He’s so dear to my heart.
Aabria Iyengar: He’s perfect.
The Worlds Beyond Number Cast Tease Season 4 Character Arcs
What is one thing that each of you can kind of tease about your character’s arc in arc four? It doesn’t need to be super spoilery at all. Just maybe one little like a sentence.
Aabria Iyengar: I am searching for wording. I know the vibe of what I want to say. I’m just trying desperately to learn how to be pithy. Someone else go first.
Lou Wilson: I’ll give you mine. I’ll give you, how about this? How about this? Caitlin, how about this? The clear quite light of purpose.
I love that. Aabria, follow that with pithy.
Aabria Iyengar: Okay. Even briefer, but I think will make sense. Suvi arrives.
Erika Ishii: Ame. Yeah. God, that’s hard.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: Also chapter four is not done yet.
Erika Ishii: I know. That’s the thing is I don’t know where … I don’t know what’s going to happen. I don’t know. My answer can change-
Brennan Lee Mulligan: It’s a very funny question to ask Erika for where we are in the campaign right now.
Aabria Iyengar: Wait, that’s not fair.
It’s my interview. I make the rules.
Aabria Iyengar: Okay, fair. you may do what you want, Caitlin. Go ahead.
I know that will come back to bite me, when we do Misfits and Magic. I don’t care. Erika, can you talk to me a little bit about Ame in the aftermath of being in the world of the witches now kind of getting out of the world of the Coven of Elders?
Erika Ishii: I think in this past chapter, Ame learned a lot from her friends. Well, I think she understands the value of lying now and of keeping things a little closer to the vest, which is a little sad, but also good. I think we saw it in the second arc where she causes Mr. Callum to have an existential crisis because she tends to kind of put things out. She has radical honesty, which I think she has learned to use selectively after the coven.
Brennan, is there anything you may tease about any of the NPCs, your choice who.
Erika Ishii: Who has the biggest dumper? Arc four.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: In arc four, who we’ve met thus far? Gosh. We meet some new Tamori, and I think some of them have the biggest dumper.
Aabria Iyengar: I know who I want it to be, but I’m not going to say anything.
Erika Ishii: Me too. I know exactly who I want it to be.
Brennan Lee Mulligan: You know who it is. You know who it is. You know who it is. That’s all.
About Worlds Beyond Number
worlds
A new narrative-play, audio fiction multiverse created by and starring titans of tabletop Brennan Lee Mulligan, Erika Ishii, Aabria Iyengar, and Lou Wilson, designed by Taylor Moore at Fortunate Horse. Worlds Beyond Number is an independent, creator-owned podcast about playing games and making up stories with your friends. Across genres, across worlds, from immersive, years-long cinematic epics to wild, chaotic one-shots, the possibilities are…a lot
Check out our previous interview here:
The first 3 arcs ofWorlds Beyond Numberare available everywhere you can listen to podcasts now. Arc 4 will begin on October 8. Check out theWorlds Beyond NumberPatreonfor exclusives including Fireside Chats with the cast and one-shots including the upcoming Children’s Adventure Halloween Special.
Dimension 20
Cast
Produced under the Dropout TV banner/service, Dimension 20 is a Dungeons & Dragons-based television show that brings together a group of players for comedic adventures in the classic tabletop game. Campaigns last several seasons and switch back and forth between them, with many cast members returning to take on new roles, all hosted by creator Brennan Lee Mulligan as the show’s Dungeon Master.
